Welcome to the two-hundred and thirty-fifth episode of the Heart + Hustle Podcast!

In this episode, we’re sharing our biggest business regrets and the lessons we’ve learned the hard way. From underpricing our services and trying to do everything ourselves to ignoring red flags, neglecting self-care, and letting fear hold us back, we discuss how these missteps led to burnout, bad partnerships, and missed opportunities. We also share how we overcame these challenges by setting fair prices, outsourcing, trusting our intuition, prioritizing balance, and building confidence so you can avoid the same pitfalls and grow your business with clarity and success.

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Meet the hosts: Angelica Yarde and Charisma O’Keefe

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Episode Transcription

00:00.59
Angelica
Hello friends and welcome back to the Heart + Hustle podcast. I’m Angelica Yarde.

00:04.80
Charisma
And I’m Charisma O’Keefe, and we are here every Monday talking to you guys about entrepreneurship, business, balance, and so many other things. We have been diving deep this year into all sorts of different subjects that we haven’t covered before. I’m excited about today’s topic, which is some of the regrets we’ve had as entrepreneurs, especially in our earlier years. I don’t feel like we have as many regrets these days, which is great because you live and learn.

00:34.15
Charisma
Like most people in any profession, when you start out, you don’t necessarily know what you’re doing. And I’ll say, especially with entrepreneurship, there’s not a roadmap, so you are just flying by the seat of your pants.

00:47.23
Charisma
There are more roadmaps nowadays than there were when we were starting out.

00:49.98
Angelica
Yeah, but not really in our industries.

00:51.94
Charisma
It’s still not fully there, you know.

00:52.98
Angelica
They’re still so unregulated. There is no right way to do things.

00:55.63
Charisma
Yes, it’s not one-size-fits-all.

00:59.18
Angelica
You’re still flying by the seat of your pants if you’re in a creative business. It’s very difficult to figure out what’s right and what’s wrong without trial and error.

01:10.58
Charisma
Yeah, you have to do a lot of trial and error, talk to people, and see what fits best for you. There isn’t one right way to do it.

01:20.22
Angelica
Nope.

01:20.98
Charisma
What works for you is not necessarily going to work for the next person. Even if something brings you financial success, it might not fit your lifestyle. It’s about figuring out your goals and designing a business that works best for you.

01:39.72
Charisma
It really takes a lot of trial and error. I’m a big fan of the thought process of “fail forward.” I like to get in there and do things.

01:52.65
Charisma
If it’s not working, you pivot, right? Fail forward.

01:55.58
Angelica
Yeah, fail forward, fail fast.

01:56.34
Charisma
That way, you know this didn’t work, and now you can pivot to something else. A lot of people get married to an idea and think, “I did this, so now I have to stay the course.” No, you don’t. If it’s not working, you can pivot.

02:15.69
Charisma
Wait the appropriate amount of time to make sure you gave it a solid try. If it’s not working, time to pivot and try something different. That’s how you end up with regrets—by trying things out. Hopefully, by sharing our regrets, you can avoid some of the mistakes we made. That way, you won’t even have to go through the failing-forward process because you can just say, “They already failed at that for me.”

02:42.07
Charisma
The first big mistake, and I think a lot of people do this when starting out in business, is underpricing your services or products. This is something I still see a lot.

02:58.74
Charisma
This was especially common in the photography industry. People would buy a camera and jump into business without really knowing what they were doing.

03:09.46
Charisma
A lot of them weren’t running legitimate businesses, weren’t paying taxes, and weren’t licensed properly. If you’re a photographer, especially shooting weddings, there are specific licenses and legal requirements.

03:21.95
Charisma
I might hurt some feelings, but I’m just going to be real about it. Many of these people weren’t paying fees, yet they were charging tiny amounts for weddings.

03:38.11
Charisma
I’ve heard so many horror stories—people never getting their wedding photos, photos turning out completely different from what was advertised, weddings being ruined because only half the photos were delivered, or even photographers being unprofessional and refusing to hand over images.

03:50.17
Angelica
Oh my word.

03:56.14
Charisma
So many horror stories over the years. This happens because people hire non-professionals.

04:08.39
Charisma
In many cases, you get what you pay for. You can’t expect to pay the same rate as a high school babysitter for a professional photographer capturing art from your wedding day.

04:24.58
Charisma
Photography is both an art and a business. You’re hiring an artist and a business owner to provide a service, so you have to be willing to pay for it. I always tell people, if you’re planning a wedding, photography should be at the top of your budget, along with food.

04:44.39
Charisma
If you’re doing videography, that’s another area where you need to invest. But what happened is, a lot of people saw others charging super cheap rates, so they undervalued their own work and kept lowering their prices to compete.

05:04.28
Charisma
You know, that Karen who just picked up a camera two days ago and is trying to sell packages for $50. So I can’t sell my package for $250—I have to drop to $99 or whatever those numbers were at the time.

05:18.10
Charisma
I’d see a lot of people undervaluing themselves and overworking. Because there wasn’t necessarily an industry standard, and since it changes so much from city to city, state to state—especially for photographers who travel—that played into it.

05:36.93
Charisma
You’d see a lot of people charging far less than they should, and I was definitely one of them. I’m speaking from experience here—there were times when I didn’t know my worth in the very beginning.

05:50.51
Charisma
And what did that do? It led to exhaustion, taking on more photography work than I should have. For me, it wasn’t so much weddings—it was the holiday season. I would always set a goal for what I wanted to earn during that time.

06:04.58
Angelica
Right.

06:07.32
Charisma
And I would also feel like, because it was the holidays, I had to give people more value or free stuff.

06:20.95
Charisma
That’s something I didn’t actually have to do just because it was the holidays.

06:22.76
Angelica
You sure don’t.

06:23.10
Charisma
Looking back, I wonder why I ever thought that. Honestly, the holidays should have been when I focused on making my money because I had my own holiday expenses. But I’d think, “Oh, it’s the holidays—I don’t want to charge too much.”

06:34.96
Charisma
So I would always book too many holiday sessions. I would also accept last-minute bookings despite telling clients every year, “Get your holiday sessions in early. If you don’t book by this date, I won’t be able to get your photos in time.”

06:49.28
Charisma
But people would still book at the last minute. One year, I even took a session on December 19. That was ridiculous.

06:59.30
Angelica
Within six days.

07:01.18
Charisma
Right! Why was I editing on December 20 when I had already structured my business to avoid that? So undervaluing myself led to overwork. Eventually, I set a standard—I told myself I wouldn’t get out of bed for less than a certain amount, and I built up from there.

07:27.60
Charisma
Over time, I learned to value myself. When I moved into consulting, I didn’t play that game. I set my rates, and if people didn’t like it, they didn’t have to book me. And that was fine because I had enough photography work.

07:38.91
Charisma
If you lower your prices, you attract the wrong clients.

07:50.64
Charisma
That’s who you’ll keep attracting.

07:52.93
Angelica
Yep. Yep.

07:55.79
Charisma
And it can be hard because you get stuck in that loop. I was happy I pivoted out of it, but when you undercharge, you attract people who want to nickel and dime you. Instead of saying, “You’re worth that, I’m happy to pay,” they constantly ask for discounts.

08:08.00
Charisma
They’ll keep trying to get a deal from you when you’re not Walmart.

08:24.26
Angelica
Yeah, no. You’re not Walmart. You’re not Five Below. You’re a living, breathing human who has to make a living.

08:41.25
Angelica
What Charisma said about photography applies to every industry. It’s a widespread issue. If you run a business remotely—unlike photography, which requires physical presence—pricing can be even trickier.

08:55.00
Angelica
The cost of living in Birmingham, Alabama, is different from Los Angeles, California. That’s just the reality.

09:05.46
Angelica
If you’re competing for the same clients remotely, it’s even more frustrating. We ran into that early on. We knew we weren’t charging super cheap prices for website design, but in hindsight, we were still undercharging.

09:20.00
Angelica
Some people were offering websites for $100. I wasn’t getting out of bed for $100.

09:23.24
Charisma
I don’t even understand how that happens.

09:23.44
Angelica
I don’t want to talk to those clients. And there are still people advertising websites for $250.

09:27.19
Charisma
I know.

09:29.27
Angelica
I still see people advertising that price. That’s fine for them, but I won’t be there. I’m not making a logo for $100. That’s just not within my capabilities.

09:40.00
Angelica
Now, if you’re just starting out and don’t have a portfolio, taking on projects at a discounted rate to build experience is different. If there’s a dream client you want to work with and you can afford to discount your rate, sure. But that’s a strategic choice—not something you do out of desperation.

10:00.03
Angelica
Absolutely. Would I say do that for everyone? No, because everyone’s not your dream client, and you really have to be particular about that. We would take some discounted rates for people who couldn’t afford us, but only for causes we were interested in supporting. You have to use your best judgment on this, but it’s very easy to start off underpricing.

There’s a lot of documentation about pricing from a design perspective. I think Jessica Hische has one of the better modern pricing guides. There’s also the Graphic Artists Guild Guide. That’s actually what we learned from—when I picked it up and saw how much people were charging for logo design and licensing their work, I realized I was severely undercharging for logos.

10:43.90
Angelica
I think I was charging maybe $500 or $600 at the time, and they were saying starting at $5,000. There was a huge gap between what I was doing and what should have been done.

10:52.53
Charisma
Well…

10:56.63
Charisma
And a lot of times, you just don’t know, right? In the beginning, sometimes you just don’t know.

10:58.97
Angelica
Yeah, we didn’t know.

11:00.27
Charisma
Yeah.

11:01.53
Angelica
Again, I started graphic design when I was 15. This job became my career by accident—something I stumbled into. It wasn’t really planned. And the industry was still evolving.

11:11.84
Angelica
Not that it’s super new, but there wasn’t a lot of broad guidance outside of the community. You had to know someone who knew someone who knew someone.

11:17.59
Charisma
Mm-hmm.

11:18.81
Angelica
Most of the older graphic designers were just old white dudes. And they weren’t talking to me. They weren’t talking to my Black husband. They weren’t having those conversations with us. There was a lot of gatekeeping in the early 2000s and 2010s.

So definitely take the time to do your research, find pricing guides, and analyze what’s happening where you live—your cost of living, expenses, and profit margins. There are calculators to help you price things so you can get a good return on investment and understand how much money you’re actually making.

Set really good boundaries. There’s just so much we could get into on pricing alone—that’s an entire episode by itself.

But another mistake we made early on in our careers that we probably regret? DIY-ing everything.

12:04.51
Angelica
We thought we could do it all. We were a one-woman, one-man, two-person, three-person show. We handled everything—from marketing to admin to the actual creative work.

As creative service providers, when we started our business, we branded ourselves as a marketing agency. Ironically, we did everything but marketing. Now, we don’t even call ourselves a marketing agency, but we still do a lot of marketing.

Back then, we were doing videos, photography, websites, graphic design for packaging, print, digital—you name it. And we were doing it all ourselves.

12:43.62
Angelica
On top of that, we managed in-house admin work, had no accountant, and had almost no overhead costs besides software.

The one thing I refused to cut corners on was our accounting software. No matter how much or how little money we made, we had to have that accounting service. You’ve probably heard me say that multiple times on this podcast.

13:05.54
Angelica
Outside of that, we were funding everything ourselves—traveling to networking events, flying across the country to meet potential clients, all out of pocket.

13:19.11
Angelica
Meanwhile, we had a baby. We had a cat. And all of this led to one thing: burnout.

Spoiler alert—if you can’t tell from how I sound right now—we are burnt-out millennials. No one is surprised. We did this for over 10 years, foot on the gas, nonstop.

I remember once we drove from Florida to Little Rock because David had a paid speaking engagement. We turned right back around the same day. It was like a 30-hour round trip. We drove, barely slept, he did the presentation, and we drove back home.

13:56.20
Angelica
That kind of work pace doesn’t make sense. I wouldn’t recommend it.

It was slightly easier back then because, while what we were doing was exhausting, we didn’t have to produce the kind of content that businesses today need to attract clients.

14:15.22
Angelica
And I’m grateful for that. If we had to constantly record videos, post content, and meet today’s social media demands on top of everything else, we wouldn’t have lasted as long as we did.

14:20.63
Charisma
Mm-hmm.

14:22.56
Angelica
If we had also been dealing with contractual content obligations and speaker engagements like people do now, I don’t think I could have handled it. I was already burned out.

To avoid burnout:

1. Delegate as soon as you can.
2. Identify services or products that aren’t profitable and cut them early.

14:35.91
Angelica
We started eliminating things as soon as we saw they weren’t making money. We only continued offering them in long-term retainer formats for select clients.

But I stopped doing one-off flyers, one-off social posts, and small one-time projects. Why?

Because by the time I set up billing, added the client to my CRM, and sent an invoice, it took more effort than the project itself.

14:55.43
Angelica
Even at my lowest hourly rate, the cost still wouldn’t be worth it. So, at the end of the day, some things just aren’t worth doing.

15:13.90
Angelica
Start writing all those things down. Take note of them so you can avoid burnout, stop doing everything yourself, and recognize what you don’t enjoy. A lot of people don’t like admin work. I love admin work.

15:25.84
Angelica
I love making proposals. I love writing emails. I love organizing my accounts. I love putting things in the CRM. I thrive on that stuff. Do I always want to do it?

15:36.78
Angelica
Nope, but I don’t always do anything.

15:37.32
Charisma
No, because it’s work. But yeah, exactly.

15:38.55
Angelica
Yeah, it’s work. But I love doing it. If we needed to invest in something, I’d rather spend money on content creators and videographers.

15:50.51
Angelica
I spend money on photographers. I hated—hate, hate, hate, still to this day—shooting products for Studio 404. Absolutely hated it. I didn’t like a single second of it. It was awful.

16:01.93
Angelica
We were indoors with nothing to do in 2020, so I had to make it work. I had a four-year-old assistant helping me. I don’t want to do that. I would absolutely pay someone else to shoot everything or create mockups. That’s a waste of my time because I don’t enjoy it. It doesn’t fulfill me.

16:18.20
Angelica
It’s not helping me. But also, when you start finding people to do that work for you, it builds your ecosystem. As you contract more work out, those people become part of your bigger team. That’s how you start relying on others, building trust, and feeling less stressed. You will need help.

16:40.58
Angelica
I am the proudest person I know. I don’t like asking for help.

16:46.03
Charisma
You really are.

16:46.86
Angelica
I will literally be bleeding to death and still won’t ask for help. That’s just me. Don’t do that. Ask for help when you need it.

16:56.21
Charisma
It’s funny because, for years, you made me think I couldn’t ask for help. I thought it was just me. Then I realized—you’re worse than me.

17:03.32
Angelica
No, I am the problem. I don’t ask for help.

17:03.60
Charisma
I didn’t see it at first, but you are absolutely the worst.

17:06.77
Angelica
I am.

17:10.54
Charisma
You were like, “Girl, you need to ask for help, be willing to let people help you.” You told me this for years. I thought, Wow, Angelica is really teaching me something.

17:27.23
Angelica
And then…

17:29.07
Charisma
Do as I say, not as I do.

17:30.59
Angelica
Exactly. Don’t listen to me.

17:34.06
Charisma
It’s like all those memes about giving friends mental health advice when your own mental health is in shambles. That’s you.

17:40.42
Charisma
Yes.

17:42.55
Angelica
She does not have her house in order, but she can give you the best advice you’ll ever need.

17:46.69
Charisma
Yes. Outsourcing has been such a game-changer for me—working with and hiring other people.

18:20.37
Charisma
For so long, especially with photography, I thought, This is my art. My name is on it. I want it to look a specific way. I want to be involved in every detail.

I get that, but at some point, you have to let go. If you want control over creative projects, you’ll need to delegate admin work. Or vice versa. You have to hire someone at some point.

18:28.69
Angelica
Yep.

18:30.98
Charisma
That’s not how a business is structured. The sooner you realize that, the better. Even if you start by relying on really good software or apps, that’s a step in the right direction. Anything that helps lighten your load is beneficial.

18:46.31
Charisma
If you want to grow and scale, you will need to bring on more people.

18:56.20
Angelica
Yeah.

18:56.62
Charisma
That doesn’t always mean hiring a full-time employee. Sometimes, it’s about outsourcing to a firm, an agency, a freelancer, or a contractor.

19:12.35
Charisma
It’s funny because now, we both do less creative work in our actual jobs. We still do creative things for ourselves, but professionally, we’ve shifted.

19:31.46
Charisma
Honestly, I don’t mind it. I like telling people what to do. That’s a big part of my job now, and I don’t hate it.

19:44.11
Charisma
If there’s a creative project I really want to work on, I’ll take it. Otherwise, I delegate. Like you said, sometimes a task takes so much effort that it’s just not worth it.

20:00.52
Angelica:
Right.

20:00.76
Charisma:
That’s this kind of, and again, because at the end of the day, yes, you should be passionate about your business. Yes, you should want to make a difference. Also, it is work. Also, we live in a capitalistic society. You deserve rest. You do not have to work all the time.

20:15.11
Charisma:
You do not have to hustle 24/7 to prove that you love being an entrepreneur or to prove that you love your business, to prove that you love your industry, or that you are aligned with your mission, right?

20:25.77
Charisma:
You still deserve rest. You still deserve balance in your life. So trying to do everything on your own just does not make sense. Don’t do it.

20:33.66
Angelica:
Don’t.

20:33.81
Charisma:
So the third thing would be ignoring your gut feelings and red flags. This could be any time when you have that feeling like, “You know what? This just doesn’t feel right. Something is off about this.” If you’re feeling that, it’s probably true. In business, this can show up in a lot of different ways. It could be a bad partnership, a bad collaboration, maybe a contractor that’s not a right fit, maybe a client or a project that isn’t a right fit.

21:03.98
Charisma:
For me, it’s been clients. I think I’ve taken on maybe three clients that I shouldn’t have, all consulting. I liked all my photography clients, but with consulting, I’ve taken on three clients that I should not have. One was last year.

21:21.78
Charisma:
If you go back, there’s an episode where I talk about a conversation I had with your husband, David, because I was like, “Am I the drama? Am I out of pocket?” I know David will be like, “Yes.” He’ll let me know. Absolutely no sugarcoating it. He’ll be like, “You are the problem.”

21:35.80
Angelica:
Yes, you are the problem. Yeah.

21:42.77
Charisma:
But he looked at it and said, “You are not the problem here. This client is crazy.” He said, “It’s time for you to either wrangle this client if it’s even a possibility, or you need to fire this client.”

21:53.37
Charisma:
And I was like, “Say no more, I’m going to go do that.” And that’s what ended up happening. I knew from the beginning there were just things off in the communication and things like that. But it was a referral from someone else, and I was kind of like, “Well, the person who referred me, I love that client. They’re great. I’ve done multiple things for them in the past.” I thought, “Okay, maybe I’m missing something here. Maybe I’m being judgmental,” but it just wasn’t the right fit. I let the client know, “This is not the right fit.”

22:22.69
Charisma:
I think we’re going to stop here. Here are my suggestions going forward. Here are some people you can work with. I left it at that. So yeah, when you feel that feeling like, “You know what? This is just not it,” stop yourself. Don’t move forward. There’s a reason your gut and intuition are telling you these things. You should not be moving forward in business with a sick feeling in your stomach. Of course, there are parts of business that require risk and things like that, but that should be an excited nervous. If you’re feeling very nervous, very hesitant about something in business, you need to follow your intuition and not do what you’re about to do.

22:53.19
Charisma:
But if you’re feeling very nervous, very hesitant about something in business, you need to follow your intuition and not do what you’re about to do.

23:01.83
Angelica:
Yeah, your gut knows what’s not right. You have to listen to yourself. Also, I would say, listen to leaders in your industry. A lot of them have podcasts that talk about episodes related to things that could go wrong in your projects, services, or products that you’re offering.

23:23.30
Angelica:
Take note of what other people’s experiences are because, nine times out of ten, that is what you run into when you encounter red flags. It’s like, “Oh, these people have already talked about it.” So if we’ve talked about someone wanting to avoid written communication, that’s a red flag.

23:37.08
Charisma:
Yep. Exactly.

23:37.58
Angelica:
Do not work with anyone who does not want to write things down. They are red-flag people. People who want to do work without a contract? Red flag. That is not… I don’t care if it’s your cousin. I don’t care if it’s your brother. I don’t care if it’s your sister.

23:48.41
Angelica:
I sent my cousin a contract, worked for her, built her website, and moved on. She paid me. We had no problems. She didn’t blink an eye.

23:54.18
Charisma:
Yep.

23:56.63
Angelica:
These are things that should not be an issue. So when people are like, “Oh, that’s my friend,” your friends want to pay you fairly. Your friends want to sign contracts. Your real friends do.

24:08.40
Angelica:
People who don’t are not your friends. People who look at things like they’re a little favor… Can you make a little sign? Can you do that? I texted a friend. Her husband is actually running for school board, and I said, “Just let me know how I can sign this petition so I can be added to the ballot.” She said, “Oh, well, you know you’re doing your website. Send me this stuff.” Oh, I didn’t know I was doing that, but all right.

24:24.67
Angelica:
But that’s her. She knows my process. I’ve done her well. She’s worked with me without hesitation. She said, “Oh, I was already going to reach out to you to do X, Y, Z.” We have X, Y, Z, da, da, da.

24:38.23
Angelica:
That’s it. Because she respects me, and I respect her as a friend. When I’ve needed her to do things for me, when I’ve needed her to read some contracts for me, I’ve paid her. She sent me a contract. You know what I mean? It’s not…

24:48.06
Charisma:
Because it’s work, yes.

24:48.25
Angelica:
That’s what friendship is.

24:49.44
Charisma:
Yeah.

24:49.53
Angelica:
And that’s what…

24:49.94
Charisma:
Mm-hmm.

24:50.37
Angelica:
It’s work, but that’s also what true friendship is.

24:51.99
Charisma:
Yeah.

24:53.66
Angelica:
I hate when people make it seem like, as a friend, you have to constantly be giving. You can be giving, and that is a benefit of being a friend, but it’s not of your services or the things that you need to live.

25:06.50
Angelica:
My friends want me to do well, and I want my friends to do well. So I’m constantly wanting to pour into them the same way they want to pour into me. I’m not out here asking them to do things for free. I have never, ever messaged you and asked you to take pictures of my kid for free.

25:19.58
Angelica:
Never in the entire time that I’ve known you, before my child was born, have I ever messaged you and asked you. You would do it, but I would never actually do that because I respect you. I care about your value. I care about your time.

25:32.47
Angelica:
I care about your money and your bank account, and I would never do that. It is what it is. You know what I mean? I just don’t understand how people feel so entitled.

25:43.45
Angelica:
So that’s a red flag to me. In friendship and relationships, one of my biggest red flags is when you start a business, people come out of the woodwork and suddenly need things.

25:45.76
Charisma:
Eighteen.

25:53.44
Angelica:
And if they really need them, they will pay you for it. That’s just…

25:56.25
Charisma:
They sure do. Honestly, somebody in my family was mad that I didn’t send them free candles and ship them. That’s what I’m just like, excuse me?

26:06.52
Angelica:
Okay, for what? Out of your pocket. Even if you had extra candles laying around, I can understand if you’re like, “Can you send me some scents that you don’t like?”

26:17.26
Angelica:
Because I love your candles.

26:17.36
Charisma:
But that’s what I’m just like, yeah.

26:18.94
Angelica:
But I’ll be like, “Let me Venmo you for shipping, at least.”

26:21.33
Charisma:
Right, right.

26:21.79
Angelica:
You know what I mean?

26:22.49
Charisma:
That’s what I’m just like. The shipping is very expensive, number one.

26:26.15
Angelica:
The shipping is more expensive than a candle.

26:28.29
Charisma:
It is. And then the materials I use are expensive.

26:31.99
Angelica:
Organic and nice, good vessels.

26:33.18
Charisma:
Right. And then also, like, I’m also like, yeah, every time I do drops, I know what type of inventory I’m going to need, and I do it, and then sell out. You know what I mean?

26:43.37
Charisma:
Like, and that’s all I have. So it’s like, why would I pull inventory to be like, let me ship this to you? That’s wild for free 99, right?

26:54.53
Angelica:
For $3.99, like not even like…

26:58.04
Charisma:
And yeah, and not tell me directly that they’re mad, but like send it through the chain of command in the family to get to me and say, “Well, this person’s mad that you didn’t.” And that’s when I was like, I didn’t even know they were interested in candles. You know what I mean? So I’m just like, but because you own a business, people treat you like, “Well, I’m entitled to everything you’re offering.” And you should have offered it to me. It’s like…

27:21.94
Charisma:
That’s a very wild take because I’m pretty sure the stores that you normally buy candles from, you wouldn’t say to them, “Well, I’m mad that you didn’t just randomly send me free stuff.”

27:29.77
Angelica:
I’m about to email the CEO of Bath and Body Works and be like, “Hey, what up?”

27:33.88
Charisma:
I’d be like, “Listen, I saw the princess drop with the Tiana merch from Bath and Body Works. How did you not just sell it to me for free?”

27:38.93
Angelica:
I need it. Why are you kidding me?

27:41.65
Charisma:
It frees me.

27:42.15
Angelica:
Shipping it to me. What are you doing? That’s crazy. Is she not doing that? Wow.

27:46.75
Charisma:
Yep.

27:48.13
Angelica:
Gross. The next thing that we have done in our businesses that everyone has done, honestly, from all time, from Bible times, people are here like, “Jesus was just making tables and not taking a break,” is neglecting self-care and your work-life balance. That is such a huge problem in entrepreneurship and business. We’ve seen so many people… I have seen so many people not be here anymore in the time I’ve had this business, that I’ve met in person, that we’ve been colleagues online, that I have sent referrals to because they were not prioritizing their health. They were not prioritizing their mental health.

28:31.33
Angelica:
We’ve lost so many great online Black creators, from passing away by suicide just because of this. We’re not prioritizing our health. We’re trying to hustle. We’re trying to make it, trying to do things differently than our parents did, because that formula no longer works.

28:52.17
Angelica:
We were told that’s the formula. That’s the formula we all agreed to. Some of us did it, some of us didn’t. And whatever the results were, we all did not get the world they got.

29:05.42
Angelica:
We didn’t get the low APRs on the homes. We didn’t get the houses, the cars. We didn’t get any of that. And so we’re trying to figure out what to do in this new world, where we are constantly being surveilled, whether it’s through official entities or just people having cameras in our faces all the time.

29:25.85
Angelica:
Like, you know what I mean? We’re just existing in a world that’s so different. There was this expectation when social media was at its height that you had to consistently share or else you’d become irrelevant.

29:36.54
Angelica:
There was just too much pressure, not taking time to just chill. If we were going on trips, it became content. Now trips have to be content. You have to post the pictures of the trips you were on. And I feel like, very…

29:49.79
Angelica:
I feel like very early… not very early on, but genuinely. And then you can tell, you go to my Instagram, you can tell when I get… I said no. Just go. It was 2017, 2018.

30:01.19
Charisma
I think…

30:01.23
Angelica
I stopped doing it. I was like, I actually don’t enjoy doing this. It’s not benefiting me. It’s not making me extra money. And I don’t owe anybody anything. I don’t owe you photos of my life.

30:14.93
Angelica
I don’t owe you videos of my trips. I don’t owe you a story, reel, or carousel. If you love to do that, and if that’s nice for you, and that’s fun for you, and that’s how you celebrate, that’s great.

30:26.19
Angelica
I hate it. I dislike it. I don’t like going up to people that I haven’t seen in weeks, and they’re like, “How was Bora Bora?” How do you know I was in Bora Bora? “Oh yeah, I saw it on Instagram.” I don’t… that’s a weird thing to me. I don’t love it. Like, it’s not… I love genuine connection.

30:41.37
Angelica
I love sitting down with people and making an effort to go spend time with them. Like you, we sit down with our friends, we go take them out on dates, we go places together, we do boring things together. I will sit in your house while you clean up or fold laundry—I’ll fold it with you. Like, I am that type of person. I didn’t see the benefit of sharing on top of running a business and being a parent. So, for my own sanity, I checked out of it. I was like, I’ll share when I feel like it. When you get it, you get it. If you saw it, you saw it. If you didn’t, you didn’t.

31:13.71
Angelica
That’s not my problem.

31:15.49
Charisma
It’s going on stories if it’s you. It’s not going on the feed.

31:18.45
Angelica
It’s going on stories.

31:20.39
Charisma
Yeah.

31:20.44
Angelica
It’s not going on the feed. If you saw it, if you were online in that 24 hours and you saw it, you saw it.

31:22.02
Charisma
It’s a blink and you miss it.

31:26.17
Angelica
If you didn’t, I’m sorry you missed it. We can talk about something else. I have long-distance friends. Nothing has changed. We still communicate via text message. If they post something in their stories or DMs, we can DM each other. Like, we have multiple ways to connect.

31:42.49
Angelica
I send friends pictures all the time via DMs that I would never post in my feed. I’m like, hey, this is what’s up. They send me things too. Our friend Shelly had her sister with her while we were thrifting, and she sent me pictures. I was like, this is so upsetting—one that your sister is this old, but also that you’re explaining why 2K to her… Like, this is just… those are things that happen that don’t require either of us to post. We just have genuine connections, and I do believe that’s real. So, all of that to say is find the thing that’s hurting you or harming you and stop doing it.

32:00.54
Charisma
One.

32:17.19
Charisma
Yeah, that’s right.

32:17.58
Angelica
If not working out is hurting you and harming you, you need to stop doing whatever else you’re doing and go to the gym. Go for a walk. Go for a run. If eating unhealthily or eating inconsistently is hurting you, meal prep.

32:31.94
Angelica
Sunday is our meal prep time. You ain’t got time to do anything else. You don’t want to go on social media. You’re not watching TV. Streaming can wait. You are spending two hours on your Sunday cooking all your food for the week, and you’re getting it together. That’s your job.

32:46.23
Angelica
You have to start prioritizing you because, guess what? At the end of the day, these platforms don’t care.

32:53.27
Charisma
Right.

32:54.52
Angelica
Your clients, some of them might care. Let me tell you something real, really not nice: a lot of them won’t. If you don’t stop doing what you’re doing, guess what? A lot of them are going to go by the wayside. And that’s business. That’s life.

33:08.89
Charisma
Right.

33:08.97
Angelica
They don’t have to be married to you. They don’t have to love you for you to do services for them. So, what I’m saying is you are the most important person in your life. Please take care of yourself. Please put yourself first because burnout is so real. It does…

33:22.74
Angelica
Kill you eventually. If you’re not taking care of yourself, it is very harmful to get out of that dark hole of depression when you feel your mental health is so bad because you’ve spent all this time grinding. You can have a great bank account, you can do whatever you want, have the freedom, but if you’re mentally not enjoying the experience, what was it all for?

33:42.42
Charisma
Exactly. Yeah, I think there’s, you know, there’s a big “how-to” when it comes to self-care, right?

33:44.55
Angelica
It…

33:50.61
Charisma
It’s like, what does it look like for you? It’s different from person to person. I feel like, unfortunately, we have a lot of people in our generation where their parents maybe didn’t teach them self-care.

34:01.45
Charisma
There are some that did, and I think that’s wonderful. But I just know of a lot of people where that wasn’t the case, right? It wasn’t prioritized. It was like, they were kind of in the same thing of just like, move forward through life, don’t reflect, like that sort of thing.

34:13.86
Angelica
Right.

34:14.94
Charisma
And so, yeah, it’s really finding out like, what does that self-care look like for you? And are your more basic needs being met—nutrition, movement, connectivity, and community? Are those needs being met? Because those are incredibly important. And then after that is work. It’s like, you can do all of them.

34:29.97
Charisma
I think that like making sure you’re taking breaks as well. I mean, so many of us work from home, it can become kind of, you know, like hard to stick to a schedule, that sort of thing. So even if you’re just putting in your phone every day, like if you have certain alarms that you turn on and you know when those alarms go off, you need to like go do 10 squats or go walk outside or go, you know, have a meaningful connection with a friend. Like, put those little breaks throughout your day so that you’re not just working nonstop.

35:15.11
Charisma
I feel like we’ve come into a situation where so much is monetized now, and every little thing needs to be monetized.

35:22.75
Angelica
Everything is monetized.

35:25.05
Charisma
Yeah, it makes it very difficult to feel like you can just be a person. There used to be a time when I really loved social media. I hate to say I don’t love it now, because it’s not that I dislike the idea of it in general. I just don’t love where we are with it right now.

35:42.14
Charisma
I really miss the days when I felt like there was connectivity online. I remember having a blog, and I wouldn’t post every day, but I would put out a post once a week that I’d work on. It would have photos and what I was up to creatively. It felt like a place where I could share my actual client work, but also share things I was experimenting with. People would comment on my blog, and I’d get heartfelt comments from people who genuinely connected with what I was sharing.

36:07.33
Charisma
And then I’d go look at their stuff and connect. It’s just very different now.

36:22.77
Charisma
Now it feels like people post a photo and just get fire emojis in the comments. It’s not the same.

36:29.48
Angelica
Drip.

36:29.78
Charisma
Yeah, it’s not the same level of connectivity it used to be. These apps are designed to keep us online for hours at a time.

36:47.87
Charisma
When Instagram was first created, you would reach the end of the feed.

36:50.79
Angelica
You’d get to the end of your feed, and you’d be like, that was great.

36:52.59
Charisma
Yeah, it didn’t take long.

36:56.51
Charisma
You’d be caught up, and then you’d go outside and live life.

37:03.16
Angelica
Touch grass.

37:04.98
Charisma
Now, it’s not even showing you the people you follow half the time.

37:11.03
Angelica
No.

37:11.24
Charisma
It’s trying to show you new people, and even creators are complaining about how, even with a big following, they’re only shown content that could go viral to bring in new people. It’s challenging if you appreciate genuine connectivity because it’s not there like it used to be.

37:31.62
Charisma
We’re starting to see people migrate to different apps, and there’s a return to blogging with platforms like Substack. I think it’s going to be an interesting space to watch over the next year. But because social media is so heavily tied to how many people make money, it’s a challenge.

37:50.92
Charisma
I mean, I built my business with social media. That’s why it’s hard for me to say I hate it. But it was such a different time. Back then, I could post a picture on Facebook, get 150 likes and 57 comments, and book another shoot.

38:11.89
Charisma
Now, businesses with millions of followers have trouble getting that kind of interaction.

38:16.35
Angelica
Yeah, you get less than 1%. If you get 1%, you’re thriving. It’s impossible to get visibility organically.

38:27.58
Angelica
These platforms don’t care.

38:28.88
Charisma
They just want people to pay, and they want them to stay on the platform as long as possible.

38:34.20
Angelica
They want you to stay tuned. To see your favorite creator, now you have to turn on notifications and subscribe to them so you get a push notification when they post something.

38:45.11
Charisma
It’s also doing scary things to our brains.

38:46.23
Angelica
Boom.

38:49.65
Charisma
This is why a lot of people, even if they were struggling before, are struggling more now. Being aware of these things is incredibly important.

39:02.06
Charisma
John and I are big on catching the other person when they’re mindlessly on their phone. We’ll ask, “What are you doing?” just to help us check in and ask if what we’re doing is good for us right now. If you need to unplug, is there another way to do it?

39:29.60
Charisma
We both do it at random times. I’ll be working on my computer and then pick up my phone, and before I know it, I’ve been on my phone for 10 minutes that I didn’t need to spend on it. Or John will be cooking, pick up his phone to check one thing, and 15 minutes later, he’s still on his phone looking at a thousand other things.

39:38.15
Angelica
It’s just dogs.

39:42.35
Charisma
But yeah, we try to check in with each other, because when it’s in front of you, it’s addicting. We’re very big on checking our screen time at the end of the week. I also put my phone in the other room because, at the end of the day…

40:00.74
Charisma
My husband is with me, my dog is with me. Those are the people I’m responsible for. Anyone else, I’m not really responsible for. So if my phone is in the next room, it should be fine.

40:11.63
Charisma
If someone’s texting me, it’s probably not an emergency. If it’s an emergency, they’ll call. I’ll hear the call, and I can go in the room and answer it, just like we did in the ’90s. You know what I’m saying? That was before we all had cell phones 24/7. I know for a lot of people, that’s a challenge—they feel like they can’t leave their phone because of family or other reasons.

40:36.40
Charisma
But my phone is where all those apps are, those distractions that keep me from having balance and taking care of myself. If you feel like you can’t leave your phone in the other room, it’s time to delete the apps.

40:51.35
Charisma
Delete them from your phone—you don’t need them.

40:53.83
Angelica
Don’t use them on your desktop.

40:54.53
Charisma
Use them on your desktop so that it’s not always accessible. It doesn’t need to be forever. Not everything you do is forever, but to get out of that addiction mode, you have to make changes. So many people say they don’t have time to work out, do their skincare routine, or take care of themselves.

41:09.21
Charisma
They say they don’t have time to do their hair the way they want or to make a healthy meal, yet their screen time is over four hours a day, just looking at their phone.

41:20.51
Charisma
And this is happening to most Americans. It’s not something to be ashamed of. Just look at your screen time and decide if that’s a good number for you.

41:38.75
Charisma
For many, the answer will be no. So take steps to change that—put your phone in the other room or delete those apps. For me, I don’t keep games on my phone because I get addicted to them immediately. I don’t care what the game is.

42:01.52
Angelica
I was thinking of Farmville.

42:01.92
Charisma
I don’t care what it is. It could be a math game, a farm game, or something else, but I get addicted.

42:08.93
Angelica
That’s so funny.

42:09.39
Charisma
Yeah, people are always talking about these cool games.

42:09.81
Angelica
Yeah.

42:11.75
Charisma
That’s actually why John got me a Nintendo Switch—because I can’t have games on my phone. I can’t. If I have a game on my phone, within a week, I’m hooked. We’d need an intervention.

42:28.88
Angelica
That’s so funny. We’ll keep that in mind for the future.

42:29.67
Charisma
I can’t do it.

42:32.37
Angelica
Shout out to the Sailor Moon Drops game though. Rest in peace. That was great.

42:35.76
Charisma
I have to have a different device for it.

42:36.91
Angelica
But…

42:38.52
Charisma
Then I’m okay. It’s funny, because we have an Xbox and a Switch, and with those, I’m totally fine. I don’t even get on them more than once a week—probably twice a month. But if it’s on my phone, forget it.

42:52.40
Charisma
The only game I can keep on my phone is Sonic, and I keep it for the kids.

42:57.70
Angelica
I was wondering why you had that on your phone.

43:01.31
Charisma
When a kid needs it, I’ll hand it over and say, “Hey, do you want to play Sonic?”

43:01.69
Angelica
For children.

43:05.20
Charisma
Only because it’s really hard. I’ve played it so much throughout the years that I’m over it. It’s still hard for me, even though I’ve played it a million times.

43:12.91
Angelica
That’s so funny. The last thing we regret, and I could be here all day, is letting fear hold us back. This is imposter syndrome. It’s feeling like you can’t do things or you’re not as big as you are.

43:33.89
Angelica
Self-doubt is one of your biggest enemies as an entrepreneur. Saying no to opportunities that could change your life because you don’t feel ready or you’re not in the right place— not realizing you deserve to be where you are.

43:52.83
Angelica
There are people in positions of power right now who haven’t done anything to get there.

43:58.82
Charisma
And…

44:03.77
Angelica
They have no qualifications, yet they’re making decisions. They’re not even supposed to be in those positions, but they are. If they can do it, you can too. I believe in you.

44:17.84
Angelica
Say yes. Listen, read Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes if you struggle with taking risks or pushing yourself out of your comfort zone because of the fear of failure. You will fail, and that’s okay.

44:24.00
Charisma
Add the boy.

44:41.19
Angelica
What happens when you fail? You move on. Fail fast, fail hard, pivot to the next thing, learn the lesson, keep it in mind, and keep moving.

44:51.40
Angelica
But often, you won’t fail. You’ll succeed, soar, learn something new, and become greater than you’ve ever been. There are so many possibilities.

45:06.68
Angelica
Like I had to say yes, because if I said no, I wouldn’t keep growing. I knew that early on. I think that’s one of those things that I didn’t struggle with as much. I did have imposter syndrome and feeling like I didn’t go to college.

45:20.53
Angelica
I didn’t go to school for graphic design. I had never taken a graphic design course. I mean, not even an official “digital” one.

45:32.26
Angelica
All that stuff came out after I was already working. So, yeah.

45:34.46
Charisma
Yeah.

45:35.27
Angelica
Lynda.com existed, but I didn’t have access to it and didn’t know it existed. So I learned how to do graphic design just by doing it. Did I read tutorials? Was I on Tutorials Plus and all that stuff? Yes, I was on all the early Photoshop blogs and those one-on-one tutorials. I was doing that.

45:56.28
Angelica
I learned how to make cute little graphics for websites because I was creating resources for people on MySpace and blogs. That’s how I learned graphic design. I wanted a cute MySpace layout, cute signatures for forums, and animated avatars for LiveJournal.

46:15.85
Angelica
That’s how I learned how to do animations. I just wanted cute stuff as a teenager. That’s how I learned. So, when there were people going to school for graphic design, I was like, “Oh, I should not be here.” But I said yes anyway, went to conferences, and showed up.

46:49.89
Angelica
One of the people I had as an intern, I love her because of where she is now. I was sitting in my apartment living room, going over Photoshop, showing her little things. She’s been on the Adobe Max stage and has done work for movies. I love that I said yes to having an intern, even though I didn’t know what I was doing.

47:04.87
Angelica
She was a Black girl in Florida who needed guidance. I was like, “I’m going to help her.” And now, look at her.

47:19.64
Angelica
So, I think there’s something to be said about saying yes and believing in yourself. You have to have that faith that you’re going to do it, even if it’s difficult. I understand your heart.

47:35.14
Angelica
I pack extra deodorant whenever I have a meeting that stresses me out because I know I’m going to sweat. I’m a sweater when I’m anxious or nervous. If I’ve been on stage, you’ve seen me—leaving in a puddle of sweat. It’s gross. Do not hug me after. I get hives. If I talk to a client I really want to work with for a proposal, every time, I leave and change for sure.

47:53.50
Charisma
Mm-hmm.

47:59.46
Angelica
It’s gross. I still get stressed and nervous about it. But I know that I have to say yes because if I say no, the opportunity may not happen again.

48:10.57
Angelica
I have to keep saying yes and keep going, keep growing, so that I continue to have opportunities—not just for me, but for the people in my ecosystem.

48:22.11
Angelica
This may not be a good fit for me, but it could be a good fit for Charisma. It might be a good fit for a friend, Logan. I have people I can reach out to.

48:29.95
Angelica
I sent Logan something the other day, like, “This is a great fit.” This is why I go into the rooms I do because even if it’s not for me, I know it’s for someone else, and I want those people to be my people.

48:42.01
Angelica
I want it for them.

48:42.06
Charisma
Yeah.

48:43.17
Angelica
Regardless of me, my folks will get it. I may not be the one, but I’ll send them to the right person. Then, I text them immediately after they leave the room: “Hey, I gave XYZ your contact. Please be ready.” When it works out, it’s great. When it doesn’t, it wasn’t meant to be, and it is what it is. That’s the worst that could happen.

49:00.10
Angelica
Nobody gets it, and we move on.

49:00.56
Charisma
Mm-hmm.

49:03.55
Charisma
I love that you talk about how, even though you know you’re going to sweat your ass off, you still do it anyway. I think people need to understand that fear exists.

49:13.84
Charisma
Yes, the fear is going to be there. It’s okay to feel the fear. Fear is not the enemy. We’re human. It’s okay to be afraid. You can feel the fear, and that’s okay.

49:26.93
Charisma
The problem is letting the fear hold you back. If you’re scared, you’re still in the game. You’re still doing what you need to do. It’s all right not to walk into every situation feeling 100% confident.

49:44.64
Charisma
Imposter syndrome is real. So many of us experience it, and I think everyone will at some point. For most people, it’s going to happen multiple times. That’s fine.

49:55.50
Charisma
It’s okay to have your confidence shaken, but you have to keep showing up so that you can find it again.

49:58.38
Angelica
Mm-hmm.

50:02.60
Charisma
For me, a big thing I like to do when I’m stressed out—whether it’s about an opportunity or just feeling down after a bad day—is focus on facts. I literally look at my career. If you haven’t started your career yet, look at what you’ve done in college or high school, or just reflect on your talent. There’s a reason you’ve gone down this path. No one is going to choose to do something they’ve never done before unless they’re good at it. I would guess you’re at least fairly good at whatever you’re trying to do. Look at the facts and the proof of what you’ve already done. The longer you stay in your career, the more you’ll look back and realize that you’ve got this.

50:56.39
Charisma
I’ve had a couple of opportunities in the past two years that seemed like a big deal, but then I reminded myself of the clients I’ve worked with in the past. I realized, “Yeah, I can do this. It’s not a big deal. I’ve got this.” Focusing on the facts really helps.

51:16.74
Charisma
When I first started consulting, there were times when I knew what I was doing, but if the situation was new or different, it felt strange. I began by working with physical locations and people in the wedding industry. But then, when I was offered a project with a gym in North Carolina, it felt like something completely different. I was scared. I wasn’t sure I knew how to do it.

51:39.47
Charisma
Later, I was offered to work with a local bakery where I was doing the usual things, but they also wanted me to design their storefront. That was the first time I did something like that, and I questioned if I could really do it. I hadn’t gone to school for that. But, as you said, I asked myself if I could do it, and I realized I could. Sometimes, there are things outside our expertise, and in those cases, you just refer them to someone else. Over time, you build a network and know who to turn to.

52:27.84
Charisma
If it’s not the right fit for you or if you’re uncomfortable, it’s okay to offer it to someone else. But if it’s aligned with what you’re doing, don’t let fear stop you. It’s probably going to be fantastic, and you’ll be glad you did it.

52:46.21
Charisma
You’ll add it to your list of achievements. When your confidence is shaken or you’re experiencing imposter syndrome, you’ll have that list to remind you of what you’ve accomplished.

52:59.95
Charisma
As an entrepreneur, we don’t get the typical awards or annual reviews that corporate environments offer. We’re working on our own, without the structure that others might have.

53:16.86
Charisma
So, I recommend keeping a list of your wins.

53:19.23
Angelica
Yeah.

53:21.35
Charisma
Every month, look back and ask yourself, “What were my big wins this month?” Add them to your list as you go, so when fear creeps in, you can refer to it.

53:38.11
Charisma
And remind yourself, “I’m a badass, and I can do this.”

53:41.69
Angelica
I just love the idea of someone being like, “I’m employee of the month” and putting their picture on the roof. That’s so funny.

53:50.54
Charisma
Honestly, if I weren’t redesigning my office right now, I’d put up an “Employee of the Month” sign with my picture on it. Maybe I should do it inside the closet because that’s amazing.

53:59.66
Angelica
That’s so funny. I love that.

54:02.21
Charisma
Yeah.

54:02.83
Angelica
But yes, feel empowered. Learn from our mistakes. We live in Central Florida, the scam capital of the United States.

54:09.00
Charisma
Right. It’s been a lot today.

54:16.18
Angelica
People have tried to pull some big ones. I would love to tell you the stories and name names, drop bomb numbers, and message these people because they owe me money.

54:29.36
Angelica
But I have a group.

54:30.01
Charisma
Same. The person who owes me money is in Georgia, though, to be fair.

54:35.85
Angelica
Get out of there and come pay her what you owe her!

54:38.62
Charisma
I’ll never see it, but it’s fine.

54:43.52
Charisma
It happens.

54:48.59
Charisma
Yeah.

54:48.73
Angelica
Catch.

54:49.72
Charisma
Hack.

54:49.81
Angelica
But we’re wrapping up our last episode of Black History Month. We will be Black all year long on this podcast because that’s who we are and what we’re doing.

55:00.21
Angelica
And we are hopefully here to help you continue to feel being Black.

55:02.81
Charisma
Next time somebody asks me what I’m doing, I’ll be like, “Being Black. That’s what I’m doing.”

55:07.54
Angelica
Period.

55:08.80
Charisma
What have you been up to?

55:08.94
Angelica
Alright.

55:09.47
Charisma
Being Black.

55:10.84
Angelica
Being Black. So we are looking forward to the next couple of weeks. We will have some guests on. Continue to…

55:16.57
Charisma
We have Women’s History Month coming up next month.

55:18.50
Angelica
We do. And guess what? We are Black women who identify as women. So we’re about to be annoying.

55:26.03
Charisma
But…

55:26.07
Angelica
Still, it’s going to be Black, but also fabulous.

55:28.75
Charisma
I love it because it’s Women’s History Month, but it’s also Melanin March. I’m excited for that.

55:34.01
Angelica
We love that. We love to see it. So, we will be here. You know, I was trying to figure out what threw us off last year, and it was the flu. I got the flu.

55:46.83
Angelica
But I don’t have the flu this time. I passed my flu barriers. I feel like we’re going to stay consistent with this podcast.

55:50.76
Charisma
You got it.

55:53.02
Angelica
God willing.

55:53.33
Charisma
Exactly.

55:53.99
Angelica
We got it. We got to, because we’ve only got ourselves. So, continue to listen, rate, review, share, share, share, share.

55:57.18
Charisma
Exactly.

56:01.28
Angelica
When you share, I can see it. I love that for me. The internet’s creepy, but also it lets other people be introduced to the podcast. That way, we can broaden our horizons because hopefully, those people will become guests, and we can continue to have interesting people doing interesting things on our podcast. We can also keep providing you with quality content because that’s what we’re here for. We’re not just two women screaming into a microphone, like in that meme.

56:28.73
Angelica
So, please rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts. It really does matter, and we appreciate you. We’ll be back next week.

56:37.06
Charisma
Thanks, guys, for tuning in. We’ll see you next week. Bye.

56:39.46
Angelica
Bye.